ROBERT MATANIC, THE KEY WITNESS says he has known him for ten years now that they met because they hailed from the same region and that they worked together on sundry jobs related to drugs, weapons and collecting debts. But the key witness quarrelled with Matanic two days before the assassination, and the police feel that Matanic intended to eliminate him afterwards Nacional reveals the complete testimony of the key witness in the investigation of the assassination of Ivo Pukanic and Niko Franjic. This dramatic testimony reveals that the witness is authentic, who knew all of the people involved in the assassination very well, and participated in illegal activities with most of them. The key witness was also to have taken part in the assassination, did take part in preparing the assassination, and has told investigators he pulled out just before the assassination because he felt that Robert Matanic had not paid fairly for some previous jobs. After the assassins were arrested the police succeeded in acquiring evidence that Robert Matanic planned to liquidate the key witness. This evidence was shown to him by the police, which was the chief reason he began cooperating with the police.

The testimony provided by the key witness reveals that the assassination of Ivo Pukanic was meticulously planned and prepared, that a number of people were involved in these preparations, and that the competent Croatian institutions have very solid evidence that Pukanic's murder was organised and technically financed by Sreten Jocic aka Joca Amsterdam. The testimony confirms that Slobodan Durovic participated directly in the preparations for this assassination, and that Zeljko Milovanovic, Robert and Luka Matanic, Amir Mafalani, Milenko Kuzmanovic and Bojan Guduric, the only one not yet arrested, participated directly in carrying out the assassination. The testimony of the key witness this spring led to the arrest of Sreten Jocic and Milenko Kuzmanovic. Details of the testimony provided by the key witness also reveal that there are very firm indications that Pukanic's murder was ordered because of Nacional's articles concerning the Montenegrin tobacco mob.

The witness's testimony

I met Robert and Luka Matanic about 10 or 11 years ago. We hail from the same village in the Lika region and knew of each other through shared relatives. Through them I met Amir Mafalani about 4 or 5 years ago, and after that the other accused persons, Slobodan Durovic about 3 years ago, and I met Zeljko Milovanovic and Bojan Guduric last year in June or July. I did some small time jobs in Zagreb with Robert and Luka Matanic at the time I met them, like collecting debts and the like. Robert travelled frequently at the time, going abroad, and the three of us were involved in all kinds of jobs, from drugs to weapons deals. I know that Robert was tried and convicted in Croatia ten years ago for attempted murder, and that he has served a prison sentence in Serbia. We were in Bulgaria together from 2004 on, and were both arrested on the way from Bulgaria to Belgrade, as there was a warrant out for our arrest.

Robert was wanted for crimes committed in Bulgaria, and I was wanted because I had not contacted the executing judge. I know that criminal proceedings had been led against Robert for some murders.
When Robert came to Croatia from Bulgaria, he began gathering his old friends. That was last year, when he got out of jail. The first week he was occupied with his personal affairs, taking care of personal identification through his attorney Pilipovic, and one time at his apartment on Gomboseva Street he said he had a good job that would set us up so that we could all go into retirement afterwards. When he concerning us, the first time only I was present, and the second time Luka Matanic was also there. That second time he was more precise about the job, saying that it concerned "Puki".

I asked who this "Puki" was, and he said that it was a hit on Ivo Pukanic. That was in July or August of 2008. It was then that Robert said that this was the person that Zeljko Milovanovic had already shot at and that he had no idea how he could have missed. Robert wanted to renew old connections with people who had tried to free him from prison in Serbia, one of which was Zeljko Milovanovic. While Robert was in prison in Serbia, namely, I received a telephone number from Robert's people in Serbia of a man who was to have organised breaking Robert out of prison, and this was a man referred to as "Kardinal", and with the surname Durovic. I met this person for the first time at the train station in Rotterdam a few years before that. It was a situation when Robert and I had did a job transporting guns by train for this Kardinal. I did not know his last name at the time, I knew him only by his nickname "Kardinal". But when I saw him afterwards in Bulgaria, that was maybe 2 years after Rotterdam, I found out what the last name of this Kardinal was. While we were in Bulgaria, Durovic personally brought us money to pay rent and expenses, and that was because we did all kinds of work for him in Bulgaria. I can describe him, it is a man about 55 to 60 years of age, with greying hair, and long, big nose, stooping, and I know of him that he was the best man to Joca Amsterdam. Besides this, the man going under the name of Kardinal financed everything needed to break into the jail Robert was kept in Serbia and to get him out using force.SRETEN JOCIC and his best man Slobodan Durovic, whom the key witness describes as the immediate financer of the assassination

I do not know exactly what year it was, but I do know that I had gotten out of prison in Zagreb, and I think it was in 2004. To explain these events I will point out that I went to Bulgaria, where Robert already was, upon my release from prison in Croatia; he was at large, I got in touch with him trough his attorney Pilipovic. We were in Bulgaria for some time, and after that we headed for Croatia, but we were arrested by the Serbian police on the way to Belgrade. I want to point out that nothing came of the plan to break Robert out of jail in Serbia because someone from Zagreb wrote a letter in Serbia that Robert was planning an escape, and he was put in solitary confinement, so that we were no longer able to contact him by phone as we had until then, as a result of which the plans for his forceful breakout from jail fell through. This I found out from Bojan Guduric, who was with Robert in Jail in Sremska Mitrovica. Robert was afterwards extradited to Bulgaria, and when he got back, that was in May or June of last year, he started renewing old connections and meeting with old acquaintances Luka Matanic, Amir Mafalani, with myself and with A. D. We met at No. 10 Gomboseva Street, in the apartment in which Robert lived, which A. D. let him use. It was in fact in this apartment that plans were started on the liquidation of Ivo Pukanic. I remember that once Robert sent me to somewhere before the tollbooths on the Zagreb - Karlovac motorway, saying that Zeljko Milovanovic would be waiting for me there. I picked him up there and drove him to Robert's apartment, and that was about 2 and a half months, or less, after Robert arrived in Zagreb. Somewhere around this time Bojan Guduric appeared, who had been in jail with Robert in Serbia. He called me by phone when Robert was in jail in Sremska Mitrovica, in solitary, and told me to go pick up some money from Robert's attorney Pilipovic, and which had been handed to the attorney for Robert's extradition to Croatia. He said that this was money with which Zoran Pilipovic was to see to it with Vesna Skare-Ozbolt that Robert Matanic was extradited to Croatia, and not to Bulgaria, but that this had fallen through and that as a result I was to pick up the money that had been previously handed to attorney Pilipovic for this purpose.

I remember that I went to the Internacional hotel in Belgrade, owned by Joca Amsterdam, almost every third day, and that was on those days when I went to visit Robert in prison. I took food in small packages to Robert in prison which I purchased with the money Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, gave me since he also financed my trip from Zagreb to Serbia, and his base was at the Internacional hotel and I met with him there for that purpose. Kardinal told me that he had done all he could in Serbia for Robert and that it was now up to Pilipovic in Croatia to do what was necessary. It was Pilipovic's task to show that Robert had done something in Croatia that he had not in fact done, which would give his extradition to Croatia priority over extradition to Bulgaria. I remember that Kardinal told me how much money was being taken from him, and that nobody was doing anything, and that Robert was still in jail, and that he had given over 500,000 euro for Robert's needs in the space of a few months, and that it had all come to nothing and that he would no longer provide money.

After Robert got out of Bulgarian jail and moved into the apartment at No. 10 Gomboseva Street, myself, Luka Matanic and Amir Mafalani started meeting at the apartment, while Zeljko Milovanovic and Bojan Guduric lived there. A. D. also came to the apartment. It was in this apartment that the conversations on the Pukanic case started, i.e. how the job was to be "carried out", with Milovanovic and Robert always leading the conversation. Robert proposed that Pukanic be taken out using a sniper, while Milovanovic said it should be done with an explosive device. In the end it was agreed that it would be done as Milovanovic had suggested, with explosive, which Milovanovic procured from Cazin. There was talk about putting the explosive device in a car or motorcycle. From the start Amir Mafalani tailed Ivo Pukanic, how often he entered and left the Nacional offices, from which direction he came, when he came to work and when he left, when he came home and the easiest way to approach him. Later we split up into two teams. The first team consisted of Amir Mafalani, Luka Matanic and Bojan Guduric, and the second of myself, Robert Matanic and Zeljko Milovanovic. Each group was to tail Ivo Pukanic, and in this second team my responsibility was to drive for Robert Matanic and Milovanovic. Luka, Bojan Guduric and Amir Mafalani were responsible for the general monitoring of Pukanic's movements around the city, that they not lose sight of him, while Robert, myself and Milovanovic surveyed various locations, keeping track of where Pukanic moved and tried to establish were we could approach him. Once we were close to the Nacional offices, but we did not enter the courtyard. As far as I know, the Nacional courtyard was surveyed by Amir Mafalani and Bojan Guduric. I was not with Robert Matanic and Zeljko Milovanovic every time, as my father was seriously ill at the time, but in those situations in which I did drive them when surveying locations in Zagreb, we used a blue Renault 5 with GS licence plates, a blue Renault Megane with ZG plates, a black BMW 5 with ZG plates which was Amir Mafalani's, and a grey BMW 5 I owned.
I do know that Zeljko Milovanovic put together the explosive device meant for the liquidation of Ivo Pukanic, but I did not know where they planned to plant it. Robert Matanic spoke with my best man P. T., who is reputed to be involved in auto theft, asking him to get him a car or motorcycle, and asked that this be a smaller, less noticeable urban car like an Opel of a small Ford or the like.

THE ATTEMPT ON IVO PUKANIC'S LIFE IN APRIL was carried out by an unknown assailant in front of his apartment on Ilica Street on the night of April 9th, who missed, hitting the display window of a shop, after which the pistol jammed and he fled the scene. I also know that P. T. told him that getting to Opels was the easiest because he knew a guy that had a box that could take codes off Opels which are then the easiest to steal. Later we went to see this guy nicknamed "Miki" in Dubrava to pick up this tool used to take the codes and which also included a device for making original keys.
Zeljko Milovanovic told me about how to work with explosives and that an explosion can be directed at something using some metal plates. Two days before the explosion Zeljko Milovanovic said that everything was ready, referring to the explosive, that as far as he was concerned that everything was ready, and put a box with a remote control on the table. I do not know what the deal was and who was to have used this remote control to activate the explosive device, but I assume that the remote controlled device was activated by Zeljko Milovanovic. I also know that Bojan Guduric was on the roof of a nearby building across the way from Nacional on several occasions, and the deal was that at the time of the explosion that Guduric would be on the roof with a sniper rifle, more precisely a black SSG. Robert Matanic had this rifle in his apartment and we took a picture with it. The sniper rifle was brought there by Amir Mafalani from a garage in Velika Gorica where there various weapons were kept while Robert was in Bulgaria, and it was Amir Mafalani personally that put the weapon there. Later Amir moved the weapon at Robert's orders to a cottage owned by A. D. in a settlement towards Sisak. I think it might be called Slobodnica.

I was present in Robert Matanic's apartment when Zeljko Milovanovic showed us the remote control for the explosive device, which he placed on the table, and said "this out, all taken care of", and A. D. was also there besides myself, and I think Luka Matanic was also there.In his testimony the key witness claims that Robert Matanic told him that the hit man on that occasion was also Zeljko Milovanovic. Of Bojan Guduric I know that he was on the roof of a building across the way from Nacional several days and that he cased the area, and that Robert Matanic was also on this roof several times and took photos. While I drove Robert around town and while we tailed Pukanic, Robert told me that there was a chance that Pukanic could be taken out from a car, if we could find a situation where we could approach him. It was not that he would hit him directly from the car, but that he found himself in a situation where he could exit the vehicle and approach him without being seen by others. Robert told me from the start that the hit had been ordered on Ivo Pukanic because of the testimony he gave in Montenegro, that he had said things there that e should not have, saying literally "for having blabbed around", and that it would cost him his life.

As far as Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, was concerned, I picked him up at the exit from Buzin to Novi Zagreb for the first time a few months after Robert got out of jail in Bulgaria, and after that I led him to meetings in Robert's apartment, and I did so by waiting for him in my BMW, and he came in his grey Mercedes, and I would be at the exit ramp from the motorway with all four turn signal lights flashing. I would then gesture with my hand that he should follow me in his car and would lead him to Robert's apartment. As far as I know, Kardinal came to Robert's apartment this way four times, about every 20 days, and it all started around August of 2008. But I would also point out right now that I was very distraught at the time because of my father's illness and that it is hard for me to put an exact time frame on it. I now that the liquidation of Pukanic was financed from the start by Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, which he said himself once when we were sitting at the table, he, Robert and myself in Robert's apartment on Gomboseva Street.
At that occasion Robert promised that he would not "blow it" like in Bulgaria or Serbia. Durovic responded by saying "do it right and you will be paid well." I know that he also gave Robert between 15 and 20 thousand euro for the costs of tailing Pukanic, photographic equipment and the like. The last time that Kardinal visited Robert was about 20 days before the murder of Ivo Pukanic. In a direct conversation between Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, Robert and myself, Durovic said that Joca Amsterdam was the person who had ordered the hit on Ivo Pukanic, who was to pay about 1 million and about 500 thousand euro right after the hit was done, and that based on how we did it, i.e. how quickly, that Joca Amsterdam would tag on a bonus. He said that it was quite urgent that it be taken care of because Pukanic was to travel to Serbia soon, so that he not talk about something else there. They knew that Pukanic was travelling to Serbia, but they did not know for exactly what purpose.

The day before the explosive device was activated I got into an argument with Robert Matanic concerning money. It concerned a debt he owned me for some jobs I had done in Bulgaria, which he had not paid, while he accused me of having allegedly sold his house and held on to some money, and we argued in his apartment. Namely, some money remained in Bulgaria in the apartment we had used together which Robert was suppose to have sent Milenko Kuzmanovic to pick up, through a guy who was the contact in Bulgaria. Robert claimed that he could not get through to him at all, and I was convinced that Robert had sent Milenko and that the money had come, but that I had not been paid out. Of all the money that Robert got from Kardinal he did not even fill up a single tank of gas for me, and I used up a lot driving them around to tail Ivo Pukanic. He kept promising the money, but Robert never gave me any. In the end I said that I was backing out of the deal concerning Pukanic because the last thing I needed was to do that and then have him con me again and "work me" again. I knew that the murder was planned for the day we had the fight, but it was probably put off because of the fight and took place the next day. I heard about the murder of Ivo Pukanic on the radio, and I was in Podlapaca in the Lika region that day, were I had gone with my best man P. T. at about 1 pm on the day of the murder. I did not want Robert to call me or look for me because he knew both of the addresses I live at with my wife and kid. I saw on my mobile phone that Robert had called me several times, in the days after the news of the explosion and murder of Ivo Pukanic was aired; for the most part I did not answer the calls, and when I did once, he asked me if I could lend him my car, or, if I could, to drive him, not saying where. I refused to do so because I was with my wife and kid and that was my last contact with Robert.

I contacted with Robert on mobile phones I was using on the numbers 098-XXX-XXX and 099-XXXX-XXX, and on fixed-lines 01-XXXX-XXX and 01 XXXX-XXX. I used these numbers to call both Kardinal and Robert in jail in Serbia, and Zeljko Milovanovic, I think that I also called Amir Mafalani, but did not place calls to Luka Matanic or Bojan Guduric, who would contact me if necessary. I also remember that I used prepaid cards for a mobile phone Robert gave me, a 095 number, and cannot remember any other numbers. I no longer remember the numbers at which I called Robert Matanic or the numbers at which I called Kardinal. My mobile devices were taken from me by the police, and I wish to note that one of them was accidentally destroyed in the process. I had Kardinal's number stored, under the name K1, I think, and I had the number of his best friend Zarko Pavlovic, they are best men. I sometimes called Zarko Pavlovic and Drazen Golemovic; they are the people who in the end hooked me up with Zeljko Milovanovic.

TAILING PUKANIC THE ASSASSINS worked in two teams. Luka Matanic, Mafalani and Guduric were constantly on Ivo Pukanic's tail. Robert Matanic, Milovanovic and the key witness surveyed the locations and picked the spot for the attack That was at the time when we were planning the forceful breakout of Robert Matanic from prison in Serbia. I met with Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, at the Internacional hotel and told him that I would do the job of breaking Robert out of jail with a team, but that I did not have my own team of people to do it because none of Robert's friends was willing to do it, by which I mean Luka Matanic, Amir Mafalani, Dario Anic and some other people from Zagreb, Robert's supposed friends. To this Kardinal responded by giving me the phone number of Drazen Golemovic, saying that he would give me the number of a guy who could put together a team to break Robert out of prison, and had experience in this as he had himself once broken out of jail.

At that meeting with Kardinal was Zare Pavlovic, known in Serbia as a businessman. I phoned Drazen Golemovic, I know that he was the guy that married Vjeko Slisko's widow after his death, and we met at a petrol station in Pula. I told Golemovic that I had been sent by Kardinal and Zare Pavlovic, they had spoken before that by phone, and then Golemovic gave me the name of Zeljko Milovanovic as a person that had a team and people to do the job of breaking Robert out of jail. After that I met with Zeljko Milovanovic between Bosanski Brod and Derventa, we met twice, and my best man P. T. was with me at the second meeting.

To the question from the deputy director of USKOK my answer is that Amir Mafalani was responsible for procuring telecommunication equipment, eavesdropping devices, GPS, i.e. the things required to tail Ivo Pukanic, and devices that could be placed under his car to detect where Pukanic was located. I also state that Robert's house was sold to finance his escape from prison, in which his good friend participated as a go-between, and that I also took part, and that the house was sold for next to nothing with forged papers. As Robert was in jail, namely, he could not provide a power of attorney for the sale and I contacted attorney Pilipovic to ask him what should be done, and he sent me a form of what a power of attorney should look like e-mail from his wife's e-mail address and said that we had to go to see Robert in jail so that he could sign it if we wanted to do things legally. But Robert told me not to do it the legal way and to forge the power of attorney, and the attorney Pilipovic contacted some third parties to draft a forged power of attorney.

I also state that Milenko Kuzmanovic on several occasions took part in activities related to tailing Ivo Pukanic. I do not know his exact role in all of this; I know only that he was in Croatia frequently, that he brought information from Serbia, and that I saw him for the last time on the day I argued with Robert. I also state that Robert and I, when travelling from Bulgaria to Croatia, and when arrested in Serbia, crossed the border by having Robert cross illegally while I crossed through a connection, but, as we were unable to move on because of the snow and Robert called Kardinal to send us people to help us out. Half an hour alter he notified us that his people could not get through, that we should spend the night at the Inex Krajina hotel in Negotina and that we should head out the next day. When we got to the hotel we called Amir Mafalani and Milenko Kuzmanovic, and a few hours alter we were arrested by the police. I also state that we were all given phone cards we used while tailing Pukanic, he had the main phone and we all spoke only to Robert, we did not exchange any information amongst ourselves. Anyone who had any information he had arrived at while following Ivo Pukanic or related to the liquidation related this directly to Robert Matanic, and never gave this kind of information to the other participants in the event. I personally for the most part did not have to transfer information to Robert, because in most cases I was with him when we followed Pukanic and I have this information first hand.

To the question from the defence counsel of the first accused party, attorney Zebec, my answer is that Robert's house, as far as I can remember, was sold for seven or eight thousand euro, and the rest as paid in kind; in weapons, namely. The money was given to me, and I passed it on to Zeljko Milovanovic, to finance Robert's escape. The sale was Robert's idea, he came up with it and agreed to the sale of the house while in prison, but when he got out he objected that I had forged the power of attorney, and sought the murder of the person that had bought the house. As far as the rest paid in kind, in weapons, I do not know how many or of what kind the weapons were, and these weapons were picked up by a friend of Robert's in Zelina.

Furthermore I state that Robert cased the situation from the roof opposite Nacional, and I know that he once photographed something, I do not with what, because I was not on the roof. I had dropped him off in front of the building that time, and I saw the photos he had shot later in his apartment on a laptop. I think that Robert should not have felt cheated by me, even though we argued about the sale of his house, because I did time because of him twice. When Robert first mentioned that he was preparing for "Puki", he said this, he did not write this on any paper. I would also like to state that besides the house I also sold my own car, all to finance getting Robert out of jail. To the counsel for the defence of the sixth accused, attorney Damir Uroic my answer is that I met Slobodan Durovic three years ago, more or less, my answer is that I truly do not exactly when, I think it was over 3 years ago. Furthermore I wish to state that was in Bulgaria about 3 to 5 months. I was active there exclusively on the orders of Slobodan Durovic, and my activities were related to Joca Amsterdam. When Robert and I were arrested, I too was in police detention, about 8 months. That night when we were caught, I called Kardinal from the hotel room by mobile phone to send us a lawyer, and he said not to worry and that we would work everything out. Then Robert called him, on the mobile number Robert had. I got Slobodan Durovic's mobile number from Robert. In Serbia I visited Kardinal almost every time I came to visit Robert. Asked to say in what way I came into contact with Durovic in Bulgaria my answer is that he phoned us at the apartment in Sofia and spoke with both of us, with myself and Robert, depending on who answered the phone, but for the most part he spoke with Robert. When Robert was in prison in Sremska Mitrovica, he personally gave me Durovic's mobile phone number, and that was because I was the only one of Robert's associates who knew Kardinal. I called Durovic at that number, and he would sometimes also call me asking how things were going. Robert was in jail for two and a half years, and I continually visited him, but I should point out that I was myself in prison for eight months of those two and a half years.

Whenever I came to visit Robert I contacted Slobodan Durovic who gave me money each time, which was 2 to 3 times a week. Robert's girlfriend Josipa Maric went with me twice, perhaps more than 2 or 3 times, but she did not meet with Durovic. In these meetings Durovic gave me money to buy food for Robert, and to cover my expenses. Asked to state what amounts of money were in question, my answer is that on one occasion Durovic gave me between eight and ten thousand euro, and later gave me amounts of 2,000, 3,000 and 5,000 euro - I give these as approximate figures, and the money was to cover the costs of getting Robert out of prison. Durovic financed this because Robert was his man; he worked for him. I am unable to say exactly how much money went through my hands, but the money was handed to me by Durovic. I do know that Robert Matanic was defended in Serbia by the lawyers Aleksandar Aleksic and Slobodan Ruzic; or rather one of them defended me, and one Robert. Kardinal, i.e. Durovic, paid for Robert Matanic's defence, Robert told me this.

Earlier in his testimony the key witness states that the order of the murder of Ivo Pukanic, according to Matanic, came as a result of Pukanic's testimony given in Montenegro. To the further questions my answer is Slobodan Durovic was, as far as I known, in Zagreb four times, but whether he was there on some other occasions I do not know. That he was here four times I know because the first time I drove him myself the first time, and later was present at meetings Slobodan Durovic was at. I only saw once what kind of car he came in, when I picked him up, it was a grey Mercedes, I think it was an E class, but am not sure, with BG licence plates. The following three times I do not know what kind of car he came in because I saw him at the apartment. Of these four times I was present at all conversations with Slobodan Durovic in the apartment, except for the last one, and that was about 20 days before the hit on Ivo Pukanic.

STANKO SUBOTIC, THE KEY WITNESS says at the end of his testimony that he heard of Subotic, under the nickname 'Cane', when Robert Matanic mentioned him in the context of mentioning Ivo Pukanic in relation to 'ratting out the tobacco mob'. To the further questions from the defence counsels my answer is that I do not suffer from Daltonism and can differentiate colours. At the meetings I participated in Durovic left sums of between fifteen and twenty thousand euro and always handed the money to Robert Matanic, and that was for the procurement of thing required for the liquidation of Pukanic. Durovic said that this was money for the procurement of everything we needed to this end, including weapons. This money was used to procure equipment for surveillance, and to the question to state precisely what equipment this was my answer is that it was for photo cameras - there many have been several, telescopes, binoculars, devices placed under his car to monitor his movements and the explosives. When Durovic was giving this money, I knew that the equipment was meant for the liquidation of Ivo Pukanic, and the equipment was purchased by Robert Matanic and Amir Mafalani and as far as I known only they purchased it. Of this equipment I can say that Robert for the most part procured small items, telephones and cards. It was Luka Matanic's assignment to tail Ivo Pukanic, this was also done by Robert, but it was Robert Matanic who was the chief man in the entire operation.

I was the driver and also participated in tailing Ivo Pukanic. The 1.5 million euro reward I mentioned previously was for the entire team, although I do not know how Robert would have divided the money up among us, but there was a bonus if the liquidation was "taken care of" quickly. I also state that I heard Durovic say that the person to place the order for the hit was Joca Amsterdam. He said so at the table when he, myself and Robert were present. To the question of whether I believe that Joca Amsterdam had a motive to place such an order, my answer is that I do believe so and that I do not believe that he would place the order for a third party. That is because the reward was coming directly from him, and why would he give it if he were not the principal. In our conversations I never heard the names of Vladimir Zagorec or Stanko Subotic mentioned as principals. I only heard of Stanko Subotic in conversation under the nickname "Cane", at the very beginning, when Robert told me that it was about Pukanic, and that was in the context of Pukanic's name being mentioned in relation to some ratting on the tobacco mob.