THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ANTIFASCISM President Mesic expressed his regret in the interview that some people in Croatia are still sentimental towards the World War II period quisling NDH regime and warned that, had there not been antifascism, that Croatia would have been ruled by the Serbian King and Draz MihailovicStipe Mesic is in the last year of his term in office as President of the Republic. He won two convincing elections, and today's Croatia, thanks largely to his policies, differs considerably from the country former President Franjo Tudjman led in the 1990s. For most Croatians the changes are, perhaps, not enough, but today's Croatia is incomparably more democratic and prosperous.

During his first term Mesic did the lion's share of the work in fighting the defeated para-intelligence structures and the clique of Army generals, ought to take power through demonstrations on the streets. And while former Prime Minister Ivica Racan vacillated, Mesic quickly retired a group of arrogant Army generals, and by doing so saved democracy. And while rightists have treated him as a national traitor for years, in all polls he is always the most popular Croatian politician, which is the status he is likely to leave the Presidential Office on Pantovcak Street with in early 2010.

But he evidently has no intention of going out quietly. Every week he warns of the poor economic policies of the Government led by Prime Minister Sanader, in the border dispute with the Slovenians he stands at the helm of those who refuse compromises bought with territorial concessions, and when many think he is turning to the right, Mesic's statements concerning Bleiburg and the forced marches reaffirm his staunch leftist orientation.

A DISPUTE OVER THE FACTS IS RESOLVED BY A COURT

NACIONAL: What is the purpose of the latest arguments related to the events that took place at the end of World War II?

- In Croatia we are once again digging through graves, all with the intention of turning the public's attention from the really current issues, such as the recession, the crisis of the fact that the judicial institutions are not working. Parliament's committees are not debating the crimes committed in the military lorry scandal, but on who leaked the documentation to the public that confirms criminal activity. In other words, it is not the person who took part in the crime that is at fault, but rather the person who warned the public that illicit activity was going on. It is time to finally put World War II behind us and let historians and forensic experts do their job instead of semiskilled politicians. But we need to know what the end of the war looked like here. After the capitulation of Germany there were still eight days of heavy fighting here. On one side there were the guards from Jasenovac that had spent four years killing, the Boban Battalion, Pavelic's personal bodyguard and some other units, and among them were Chetniks, Kozacks and Rupnik's home guard. 1,500 Partisans were killed in these battles, even though the war was officially over. There was retaliation, and I condemn the liquidations of enemy troops without trial. But who is in the Huda Jama sinkhole? We still do not know whether these are quislings who were killed in retaliation or members of these formations killed in battle and whose corpses were thrown into these kinds of places. The truth needs to be established by forensic experts, and not that a high-ranking police official tries to convince me that at just one location 4,200 people were buried up to the waist and then killed with pickaxes. These are the kinds of theories concocted by those who like to watch films about the Comanche and Sioux. Just imagine how much work is involved in digging a pit for 4,200 people, then to bury them all up to the waist and then liquidate, and then dig them out again and bury. It is nothing more than balderdash, and now all kinds of sick people are coming up with unfounded stories. One should not forget that right up to 1950 there were groups of Ustashe, krizari (crusaders) and skripari that resisted the authorities, and that both sides had losses in these showdowns. Now there are insinuations that the killed crusaders and Ustashe were innocent victims, while the representatives of the authorities of the time were simply killed in battle. What kind of logic is that?

NACIONAL: Is this the logic of Franjo Tudjman and the former HDZ right-wingers such as Gojko Susak, Ivic Pasalic and Vice Vukojevic?

- Unfortunately, yes. It is Tudjman's idea of a common grave of the Partisans, Ustashe and Home Guard, which is just nonsense. I would like to say once again that for me every crime is a crime, but we have to understand in the process why some things happened in those circumstances.

NACIONAL: How would you evaluate your political role over the past ten years?

- When I was elected to the office of President, Croatia was in a double isolation. On the one hand we were isolated from Europe and the world, and on the other, we were in a kind of self-isolation, because there was a ruling system that did not fit into what we refer to as a modern Western democracy. My first task was to open Croatia to the world, and then to get the institutions working, which had been selective in applying the law. I think we succeeded in improving much, in which I would especially underline the transformation of the Croatian Army from a party-led to a professional army, which now meets NATO standards. I think that we have succeeded in these two mandates in transforming Croatia into a country wanted in the membership of NATO and the European Union.

NACIONAL: Sending the generals that criticised the policies you led together with the government of Ivica Racan into retirement is often cited as the most far-reaching of your decisions?

- At the time we were debating which of the presidential powers were to be scrapped and which retained. A group of generals got involved in the debate and came out with a political pamphlet, and while some did not know what was at hand, it was a slow military coup. The generals thought "We defended Croatia, we succeeded in that defence, and now we can rule Croatia." I said that they could rule, by under the condition that they not be soldiers. Let them enter the political arena, go to the polls and win a majority in Parliament, and then they can rule Croatia, but no one can get involved in politics while serving in the Army. That is why I retired them that instant.

NACIONAL: How did you feel when Croatia was accepted into NATO membership?

- The event is in itself nothing special, even though it is understood that I hoped for this outcome. Great credit goes to our Armed Forces, who did much to make us acceptable to NATO. I think that anyone would feel a sense of pride to be numbered among the most powerful military alliance in the present day, and we have come under a protective umbrella and no longer have to give thought as to how we would defend ourselves if someone tried to attack us. Thanks to this umbrella we can expect a great influx of foreign capital, capital that seeks out stable countries, and membership in NATO is a guarantee of stability. Besides, enormous possibilities have opened to us in terms of production in the military-industrial complex and placements to states that are a part of this alliance.

NACIONAL: A much more complex issue is that of accession to the European Union and the current Slovenian blockade. But the fact that Slovakia, Romania and Bulgaria are in the EU opens the question of the responsibility of Croatian policy makers for the progress of the negotiations?

- There is certainly also responsibility on our side, but some of these countries did not get in because they flawlessly met al of the conditions set before them, but for certain geopolitical reasons. We have to do all THE SCANDAL AT THE DEFENCE MINISTRY The President would be opposed to having Roncevic again the candidate for the post of defence ministerwe can for the EU to recognise the efforts we are making. But the behaviour of a large part of the political elite in Slovenia remains open, we feel that Croatia is vulnerable and is overly ambitious in wanting to get into the European Union. So they think it is a good idea to squeeze us a little now and take a few kilometres of land and some 150 square kilometres of our waters. Croatia can under no circumstances accept bartering with territory. It is a matter of principle, because if they could, Slovenian and Croatian politicians would already have drawn the border, but both have dug in with their arguments. It is a mistake to call on some general practice politician to have them draw an international border, because the dispute is over the facts of the matter. And we you have a dispute over the facts, only a court can resolve it.

INVALIDS ON THE FINANCIAL MARKET

NACIONAL: Will you support international arbitration that would be led by experienced lawyers, which would presume forfeiting the international courts of law in The Hague or in Hamburg?

- It is senseless to move towards ad hoc solutions if the competent judicial bodies are available to us. Slovenia got into the EU and NATO with this same problem, so why shouldn't we.

NACIONAL: Except that the Slovenians can block us for as long as they want?

- I know they can, but that works to their own detriment. I will tell you objectively that it is in Slovenia's interest to see Croatia enter the EU and to fully open the border to the flow of capital. Slovenia produces consumer goods and it must suit them to move all the barriers that will exist so long as Croatia is outside the European Union. That is why it is in their interest to open the border, and not to squabble over a few kilometres of Adriatic coastline.

NACIONAL: What will the consequences of the global recession be on life in Croatia?

- We already feel the consequences, and what will happen in the future depends mostly on ourselves and our own ability to weather the crisis. Even the biggest countries in the world have been forced to make tough decisions, and so will we. Neoliberal capitalism has come to its peak and has now become counterproductive. The only thing that was important was to create a profit, and what we got was fictive capital, which decoupled from real capital, which led to the banking collapse in America, which spread to the rest of the world. America is resolving the problem by having the state invest into the banks, but the solution is to adopt regulation in the financial sector, and to do so at the global level. It is certain that the consequences of the crisis will also be felt in Croatia, because we are a country with a debt of 30 billion, and there is 11 billion in debt maturing for repayment and the capital, while our foreign currency reserves are at 7 billion, of which we can use only two billion. In a way we are invalids on the financial market, because we can only operate with these two billion. Ivo Sanader and his Government has to find a way out, and it is up to them whether they will issue government bonds, reprogram the debt or be forced to seek the help of the IMF.

NACIONAL: How would you evaluate the economic policy of the Sanader Government?

- There is still no analysis that would show to what extent Government's policies are responsible for the crisis, and to what extent it is the result of the global recession. I am always an optimist and feel that if we learn from what has happened and take the right steps, things will turn out all right in the end. The problem is when you think that time will resolve the recession, then there will be major problems.

NACIONAL: Do you think that the current Government is to some extent following that line of policy?

- There probably is an expectation that time will solve the problem, but I am saying that without real economic measures time will not resolve anything.

NACIONAL: What happens to a country in which the President is unable to force national institutions to investigate a corruption scandal in the Armed Forces?

- I'd like to know that too. For four years I have insisted on a resolution, I demanded it of the former Milan Bandic, Stjepan Mesic and Ivo Pukanicdefence minister Berislav Roncevic. There is no need for a parliamentary commission to establish responsibility in this matter because everything is clear: a tender was issued for the purchase of military lorries, which was conducted, and then annulled with the explanation that the defence ministry lacks the necessary funds. But the next day a contract is signed with a company and everything is paid up front. Who needs to investigate the facts here other than the police, the State Attorney's Office and the courts? If there is no money today, who made the decision the next day that there was in fact money?

NACIONAL: Why did you not dismiss Roncevic?

- I do not have the authority to do so.

NACIONAL: Did you warn Prime Minister Sanader of this?

- I suggested to Sanader that an order be issued to establish responsibility. I always got an answer that it was in the works. It went so far that I had to intervene when the Government was being put together, and I warned that I would go public if the HDZ nominated Roncevic again for post of defence minister.

SUPPORT FOR THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE

NACIONAL: In a way this scandal weighs in on the conflict between yourself and the HDZ, where they are convinced that you prefer the left of centre parties coming into the upcoming local elections?

- Interests rule politics, and not love. I will always support all those who are committed to Croatia as an orderly country, just like I will never side with those call those who want to clean up crime and corruption to order. I have already said that I will in no way participate in the local elections, and I will go to those places to which I am invited and where events are organised from which I can send the message that we need to manufacture and export. But I will certainly vote.

NACIONAL: Which of the candidates for mayor will you vote: Milan Bandic, Josip Kregar or Jasen Mesic?

- If surnames were an argument, I should vote for Mesic, but I will not say who my favourite is. As far as the future president is concerned I will endorse one candidate a month ahead of the elections.

NACIONAL: This is your final decision?

- That is very likely what I will do. I want my successor to be a confirmed antifascist, because it is clear that there are still some in this country that are sentimental when it comes to the quisling World War II NDH regime. Had there not been antifascism, there would not have been Croatia either, but the Serbian king and Draz Mihailovic would have ruled. It is everyone's legitimate right to attack Tito, but without him there would be no Croatia or Slovenia today, because all of this would be Great Serbia. The future president must be committed to the transparent functioning of state mechanisms and take an active role in the functioning of the rule of law and for the unselective enforcement of the law, because the selective enforcement of the law is the fundamental cause of crime and corruption in Croatia.

NACIONAL: Will you remain active in politics after your term in office is over?

- I will be the Former President for life.